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MisterBadIdea 
"PLZ GET MILK, KTHXBYE"
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 Posted - 08/12/2008 : 23:42:18
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A friend of mine told me she had just turned vegetarian for moral reasons. I rolled my eyes and condescended to her, and I think I pissed her off. I feel like an ass about it. Vegetarians don't hurt nobody, right?
Because of that disagreement, I've been reading up more about vegetarianism, and about the arguments for animal rights, free-range poultry, and so on. I don't think they've put much of a dent in my omnivore status, but I'm curious to see what the man on the street thinks. You veggies out there: What tipped you over? You meateaters: How can you possibly justify what you do? Do you know what goes on in slaughterhouses? You really should, because it's really gross. What do you think, peoples? |
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Salopian 
"Four ever European"
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Posted - 08/13/2008 : 00:12:32
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| From a logical point of view (rather than in the sense of searching for products in the supermarket), eating meat is an active position whereas not eating it is not. Thus the former needs to be considered right before doing it in a way that the latter doesn't. The starting point is not eating (or doing) anything in life and then deciding which things it's O.K. to eat (or do). While in doubt, one shouldn't eat/do them. |
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BaftaBaby 
"Always entranced by cinema."
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Posted - 08/13/2008 : 00:43:26
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I considered vegetarianism very carefully and very seriously and did a great deal of research. I'd call myself a very caring omnivore because:
1. As a species we were evolved to eat a wide variety of foodstuffs, which is why we have the kind of dentition and length of intestines. Since we're not the best of other species at running, seeing, smelling, hearing, etc - our survival secret is our amazing adaptability, a complex brain to process the changes, and an opposable thumb to implement them. Being an omnivore gives us a great advantage to survive any changes in food availability.
2. Although we can survive without animal protein, it is a highly effective source of the combos of amino acids all our body cells require for optimal health and ability to regenerate.
3. That said, modern peeps eat way too much meat, and many of us eat too much of the 'wrong' kind - by which I mean that containing saturated fats. We'd probably have a better balance of animal proteins if we had to kill our own food - it would give us a better respect for animals. And ourselves.
4. I only eat organically reared animals and whenever I can I source them from local farmers. I've been eating organic for nearly 30 years. I would never eat an animal that was intensively reared, and yes, I have visited battery chicken houses and livestock shows and am disgusted by all the facets of agri-business. That's the crime. Eating meat is not a moral failure. The way meat is produced for a distorted market has no moral justification.
No, I do not believe that it is hypocritical to be concerned about animal welfare and yet eat meat. Vegetarians shouldn't believe they aren't killing animals by their choice. Every time a crop is released from the soil many tiny animals die. The animals killed in vegetable production are insects not mammals, but they are still animals, so where's the moral line? Four legs bad, eight legs good?
The power of the agri-business lobby is so immense it literally affects global policy on all related economic decisions allied as it is with the drugs industry, the oil industry, and most bio-chemical processes. These are the people who constantly muddy the waters about the GMO debate, and who denigrate the wonderful work being done by the organic food producers and local food advocates.
The morals of this issue are truly complex. You really have to dig around to get anywhere near the truth.
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Whippersnapper. 
"A fourword thinking guy."
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Posted - 08/13/2008 : 01:05:32
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I decline to argue with a person who believes insects have eight legs.
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BaftaBaby
"Always entranced by cinema."
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Posted - 08/13/2008 : 01:14:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Whippersnapper
I decline to argue with a person who believes insects have eight legs.
Ah - I suppose you think a spider is a marsupial?  No - of course you're right, it's an arachnid. Six legs, they have six legs -- my point is still valid!!!!
PS - I certainly don't want to argue!!
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Edited by - BaftaBaby on 08/13/2008 01:17:10 |
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Salopian
"Four ever European"
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Posted - 08/13/2008 : 01:31:04
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| Well, there are significant neurological differences between vertebrates and insects/arachnids that mean it is a logically valid position to find killing the latter O.K. but not the former. A better argument in that direction is that cereal production involves killing many mammals -- e.g. field and harvest mice. |
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Whippersnapper.
"A fourword thinking guy."
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Posted - 08/13/2008 : 01:44:16
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quote:
Originally posted by BaftaBabe
quote:
Originally posted by Whippersnapper
I decline to argue with a person who believes insects have eight legs.
Ah - I suppose you think a spider is a marsupial? No - of course you're right, it's an arachnid. Six legs, they have six legs -- my point is still valid!!!!
Your point may still be valid, but your credibility has just fallen through the floor.
How can you EVER show your face in the fourum again?
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BaftaBaby
"Always entranced by cinema."
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Posted - 08/13/2008 : 02:10:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Whippersnapper
How can you EVER show your face in the fourum again?
I haven't shown my face for ever such a long time. But here's my ass!! 
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Herky 
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Posted - 08/13/2008 : 02:43:52
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quote:
Originally posted by BaftaBabe
I haven't shown my face for ever such a long time. But here's my ass!!
Must resist making snide remark...must resist...must resist...
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Herky
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Posted - 08/13/2008 : 03:06:00
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Apex predators eat other animals, so I don't find guilt/moral reasons to be especially compelling. Plus, there's no shortest of vegetarians who are dogmatic about it, and I don't think they're above a little (or for that matter, a lot of) needling. Between family farms and hunters, it's possible to eat meat without be a party to cruelty.
To me, health reasons make for a far more compelling argument. A dietary philosophy I like is Meat As Condiment. In other words, rather than meat being the meal with veggies, etc. being the side, veggies, fruits, grains, etc. are the meal and meat is the extra.
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MguyX
"X marks the spot"
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Posted - 08/13/2008 : 03:40:08
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quote:
Originally posted by BaftaBabe
. . . here's my ass!!
Mmmmm . . . nice ass.  |
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MisterBadIdea
"PLZ GET MILK, KTHXBYE"
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Posted - 08/13/2008 : 05:04:03
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Here's my thoughts.
My friend said she didn't mind animals who had been killed while hunting, she just didn't like the systematic torture of animals born on factory farms. I don't see the distinction. And yes, I was already aware of the horror that goes on in slaughterhouses. I've thought about it, digested it, and decided I didn't care. I realize that it's mightily unpleasant. But quite frankly, I've already decided that this animal can die for my whims -- as has everyone else, whether they eat meat or not. And I understand if anyone disagrees, but once you've made that decision, I don't see why anyone can care any further. I don't believe in "humane" killing; I think it's an oxymoron. If the animal rights people succeed in getting KFC to stop torturing chickens, good for them, that's a real accomplishment. But in the end, it's a chicken and I'm going to eat it. And that's all there is to it. |
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thefoxboy
"Four your eyes only."
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Posted - 08/13/2008 : 05:14:29
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I eat animals that don't eat animals.
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Sean 
"Necrosphenisciform anthropophagist."
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Posted - 08/13/2008 : 05:35:47
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quote:
Originally posted by MisterBadIdea
My friend said she didn't mind animals who had been killed while hunting, she just didn't like the systematic torture of animals born on factory farms. I don't see the distinction.
I see a major distinction. Torturing a human for a year in a dungeon then killing him is a much worse crime than simply walking up to someone in the street and killing him. There's an extra crime involved - a year of torture and misery.
The same applies to animals. A wild animal or a farmed sheep/cow (in some parts of the world) has a 'decent' life until the time comes to die. Whereas pen animals such as pigs and poultry (depending on where/how they're treated) have a thoroughly miserable life, every second of it. They're effectively born in a tiny prison cell with 10 others and spend their entire life there with no room to move.
And don't get me started on foie gras... |
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Whippersnapper.
"A fourword thinking guy."
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Posted - 08/13/2008 : 10:28:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Herky
quote:
Originally posted by BaftaBabe
I haven't shown my face for ever such a long time. But here's my ass!!
Must resist making snide remark...must resist...must resist...
Be strong Herky.
If I can resist it, you can resist it.
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BiggerBoat 
"Pass me the harpoon"
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Posted - 08/13/2008 : 10:50:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Se�n
And don't get me started on foie gras...
Nah, I'm the same - once I start I can't stop.
Interestingly the practice of overfeeding geese goes back thousands of years but was mostly done for the goose fat rather than the liver. Some think that it was the European Jews who introduced it in modern times. Judaic dietary law (Kashrut) forbade the use of lard in cooking so olive oil or sesame oil was used as a substitute, but this was difficult to get hold of in parts of Europe so goose fat (known in Yiddish as �schmaltz� � now you know) was used instead. It was noticed that the effect of fattening also made the liver particularly delicious, hence the popularity of liver dishes and particularly foie gras. |
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Vegetarian
